[c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)

[Tails Pipes]

I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are definitely
not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction of
LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and make
money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw

Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised that
this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.

What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
(Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS is
inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was inferring
that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
products.

What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch and
cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real defining
moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
architecture ?

Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?

ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
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[Saku Ytti]

Hey Tails Pipes,

What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open source'?

All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.

And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious
motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for
free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their
own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia
is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off
vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and
cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium
control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.

I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it
in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time,
but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.

I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no
way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux,
no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
forwarding-plane.
Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in
that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted
you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case,
the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And
of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.

What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
the forwarding-plane.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are definitely
> not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction of
> LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and make
> money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
>
> Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised that
> this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
>
> What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
> (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS is
> inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was inferring
> that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
> products.
>
> What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch and
> cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real defining
> moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
> architecture ?
>
> Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
> difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
>
> ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
> _______________________________________________
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
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[James Bensley]

On 22 June 2018 at 09:27, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
> What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
> specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
> the forwarding-plane.

E.g.

https://netfpga.org/site/#/
+
https://github.com/p4fpga/p4fpga

Open source hardware and a P4 target to drive it!

I've been watching these two projects for a couple of years now, very
exciting stuff in my opinion however, I can't convince anyone at
$dayjob to show any interest in them :(
[1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus
a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it
is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper
have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob
to look into.

Cheers,
James.


[1] Over the years you realise that tech skills aren't super useful if
you can't convince your business why a certain technology might be
better for them relative to their business needs.
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[Saku Ytti]

Hey James,


> https://netfpga.org/site/#/
> +
> https://github.com/p4fpga/p4fpga
>
> Open source hardware and a P4 target to drive it!

Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and
class-room?

> [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus
> a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it
> is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper
> have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob
> to look into.

XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM
has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case
for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very
expensive.
Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do
something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more
exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution.
And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for
anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget
compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't
matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom
line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON
boxes.

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[James Bensley]

Hi Saku,

On 22 June 2018 at 10:13, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
> Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and
> class-room?

This is mostly driven by academia, a bunch of universities
collaborating together. Minimal operator input which is a shame.

>> [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus
>> a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it
>> is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper
>> have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob
>> to look into.
>
> XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM
> has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case
> for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very
> expensive.

Yes that was the point I was trying to make too.

> Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do
> something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more
> exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution.
> And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for
> anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget
> compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't
> matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom
> line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON
> boxes.

So an "easy" use case might be a BGP free P node for example; a low
touch config box with minimal features and less to go wrong. VPP is
pushing the 1Tbps mark on x86 hardware now. But 10x100Gbps Ethernet
NICs and 64 cores ain't cheaper than a whitebox device right now.

Cheers,
James
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[Alexandre Guimaraes]

To change the direction, Cisco had to make a big step in all areas, where all training stuff, certifications and CCxx badges will be part of the past....

They will make more money as fast as possible, since Arista and others are challenging Cisco devices with lowest prices... and better equipments (forget the support services, doesn’t work when you REALLY need, all vendor have the the type of support, maybe, using the same follow the sun call center)

Until one day, Cisco will face a doomsday and will acquire some company that own the knowledge.

Personally, I move forward to another vendors, leaving Cisco devices and certifications behind... Juniper, even they are trying expand their portfolio, the new Juno ELS cli still holding the promise to fly to the moon. And of course the chipset still behind the expectations....

Whiteboxes, perhaps they are the future, we just need to know how the OS we will use that’s will works....

And how support services will deal with it...


My cents,

Best Regards
Alexandre

Em 22 de jun de 2018, à(s) 11:31, James Bensley <***@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Hi Saku,
>
>> On 22 June 2018 at 10:13, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
>> Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and
>> class-room?
>
> This is mostly driven by academia, a bunch of universities
> collaborating together. Minimal operator input which is a shame.
>
>>> [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus
>>> a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it
>>> is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper
>>> have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob
>>> to look into.
>>
>> XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM
>> has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case
>> for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very
>> expensive.
>
> Yes that was the point I was trying to make too.
>
>> Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do
>> something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more
>> exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution.
>> And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for
>> anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget
>> compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't
>> matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom
>> line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON
>> boxes.
>
> So an "easy" use case might be a BGP free P node for example; a low
> touch config box with minimal features and less to go wrong. VPP is
> pushing the 1Tbps mark on x86 hardware now. But 10x100Gbps Ethernet
> NICs and 64 cores ain't cheaper than a whitebox device right now.
>
> Cheers,
> James
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[Mark Tinka]

On 22/Jun/18 16:56, Alexandre Guimaraes wrote:

>
> Personally, I move forward to another vendors, leaving Cisco devices and certifications behind... Juniper, even they are trying expand their portfolio, the new Juno ELS cli still holding the promise to fly to the moon. And of course the chipset still behind the expectations....

Don't get me started on Juniper's ELS CLI that, essentially, broke what
was once an easy-to-run EX switch line...

But in-keeping with the spirit of this thread, yes, the times they are
a-changin'.

Mark.
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[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 03:02:05PM +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
> Don't get me started on Juniper's ELS CLI that, essentially, broke what
> was once an easy-to-run EX switch line...

Yay, ELS. Enhanced Lame Something. Or so.

Like, "you have this wonderful XML API to query switch". Only that with
ELS, half the tags are named differently now. Like, "ssh screen scraping
for answers, only worse".

Getting very much off-topic now, though.

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany ***@greenie.muc.de

[Mark Tinka]

On 27/Jun/18 15:48, Gert Doering wrote:

> Yay, ELS. Enhanced Lame Something. Or so.
>
> Like, "you have this wonderful XML API to query switch". Only that with
> ELS, half the tags are named differently now. Like, "ssh screen scraping
> for answers, only worse".
>
> Getting very much off-topic now, though.

My gripe is the Q-in-Q configuration went from one line to a gazillion,
per interface.

Mark.

[Sami Joseph]

What is the main reason for J to build ELS ?

~S

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 6:02 AM, Mark Tinka <***@seacom.mu> wrote:

>
>
> On 22/Jun/18 16:56, Alexandre Guimaraes wrote:
>
> >
> > Personally, I move forward to another vendors, leaving Cisco devices and
> certifications behind... Juniper, even they are trying expand their
> portfolio, the new Juno ELS cli still holding the promise to fly to the
> moon. And of course the chipset still behind the expectations....
>
> Don't get me started on Juniper's ELS CLI that, essentially, broke what
> was once an easy-to-run EX switch line...
>
> But in-keeping with the spirit of this thread, yes, the times they are
> a-changin'.
>
> Mark.
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[Saku Ytti]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 19:22, Sami Joseph <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the main reason for J to build ELS ?

As far as I can ascertain they changed Marvell to Broadcom and needed
to program things differently. Instead of abstracting this without
user visible changes, they just exposed different keys to user visible
configuration. Not unique thing vendors do, I see no reason why ES+
in Cisco needed to get EVC CLI, why not just map EVC as subinterface.

But it is what it is. Ultimately it's minor inconvenience if you have
proper source of truth in formal format, translating it to multiple
informal formats isn't that expensive.

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[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 07:41:24PM +0300, Saku Ytti wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 19:22, Sami Joseph <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What is the main reason for J to build ELS ?
[..]
> But it is what it is. Ultimately it's minor inconvenience if you have
> proper source of truth in formal format, translating it to multiple
> informal formats isn't that expensive.

Except that with ELS, it's more subtle than "just a different way how
to configure a VLAN" since they also changed parts of the *logic* what
you need to do to successfully enable VST on a VLAN. Like, pre-ELS,
it's "just there", and post-ELS, you configure a VLAN the usual way
and things explode because "no STP".

Yes, you shouldn't need to rely on STP in the first place, but this
is just plain annoyance.

(Yes, we have templates for both pre-ELS and post-ELS, but having to
figure out what is new now and how and why port-unrelated things have
to be changed was an unneccessary waste of lifetime)

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany ***@greenie.muc.de

[Mark Tinka]

On 28/Jun/18 18:54, Gert Doering wrote:

> Except that with ELS, it's more subtle than "just a different way how
> to configure a VLAN" since they also changed parts of the *logic* what
> you need to do to successfully enable VST on a VLAN. Like, pre-ELS,
> it's "just there", and post-ELS, you configure a VLAN the usual way
> and things explode because "no STP".
>
> Yes, you shouldn't need to rely on STP in the first place, but this
> is just plain annoyance.
>
> (Yes, we have templates for both pre-ELS and post-ELS, but having to
> figure out what is new now and how and why port-unrelated things have
> to be changed was an unneccessary waste of lifetime)

This...

Mark.

[Saku Ytti]

Hey Gert,

> (Yes, we have templates for both pre-ELS and post-ELS, but having to
> figure out what is new now and how and why port-unrelated things have
> to be changed was an unneccessary waste of lifetime)

Not disagreeing, but on the scale of approving new hardware, writing
new templates isn't that significant OPEX cost. New platform means
learning new limitations of HW, new corner cases, new way to
troubleshoot, new things to monitor, it's inevitably rather huge
chore. Maybe there comes a day when we don't have to be hyper-aware of
the underlaying hardware in networking kit, but that certainly isn't
today, in that future, this would have been relatively much larger
issue.
Perhaps this is more marketing problem than technical, as they are
presenting it as minor upgrade, when in reality everything changed.

It would be still interesting to hear what was the reason. Would the
preELS map poorly to modern switching asics, is postELS more in-line
on how forwarding-plane is actually programmed? Or could they have
trivially supported preELS, but regardless of BRCM noticed their first
attempt at switch CLI has inefficiencies they decided to remedy while
changing everything anyhow.

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[Mark Tinka]

On 29/Jun/18 10:08, Saku Ytti wrote:

> It would be still interesting to hear what was the reason. Would the
> preELS map poorly to modern switching asics, is postELS more in-line
> on how forwarding-plane is actually programmed? Or could they have
> trivially supported preELS, but regardless of BRCM noticed their first
> attempt at switch CLI has inefficiencies they decided to remedy while
> changing everything anyhow.

The rumour was that because of the use-case of the QFX (large scale data
centre switching), Juniper were slanting development toward Web Scale
customers, and wanted to make sure any interest in the lower-end of the
market (EX) did not present a different CLI than those customers were
accustomed to with the QFX. Because the Web Scale customers are needing
more IP functionality in their Layer 2 switching environments, ELS makes
that easier to do without actually having to sell a router to them for such.

Again, the rumour...

As a regular telecoms operator, I have no such needs.

Mark.
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[Tails Pipes]

Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move
networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it,
there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those
? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco
network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be
able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years.

What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the
point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors
mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who
exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus
trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you
that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation
to take course.

Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many
people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS
variants, that doesnt mean that every one is....can i operate networks
without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco,
I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of
different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company
is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
microsoft of networking is cisco.

https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches-are-no-bargain

This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is
bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the
speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.

Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont
see Cisco's name here but others are.

can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ?
is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?

can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
writing that code ?

this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
dont understand.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:

> Hey Tails Pipes,
>
> What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open
> source'?
>
> All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
>
> And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious
> motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for
> free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their
> own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia
> is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off
> vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and
> cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium
> control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
>
> I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it
> in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time,
> but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
>
> I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
> source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
> another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
> others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no
> way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux,
> no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
> forwarding-plane.
> Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in
> that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted
> you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case,
> the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And
> of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
>
> What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
> specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
> the forwarding-plane.
>
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are definitely
> > not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction
> of
> > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and
> make
> > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
> >
> > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised
> that
> > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
> >
> > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
> > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS
> is
> > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
> inferring
> > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
> > products.
> >
> > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch and
> > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real defining
> > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
> > architecture ?
> >
> > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
> > difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
> >
> > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
> > _______________________________________________
> > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
> > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
>
>
> --
> ++ytti
>
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[Sami Joseph]

Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox
already did...i guess

https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a-better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev

Description

Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking
are all the rage today. While the choice in white box
switches and "open" networking operating systems (NOS)
has proliferated in recent years, switching ASICs are
still predominantly programmed using SDKs and those SDKs
are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The
adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a
huge impact on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for
user APIs (how the switch is configured, debugged and
monitored) and the performance of the control plane.

Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into
a new approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related
in-kernel APIs. The result allows for a simpler, cleaner
NOS that fully leverages the Linux kernel with the ASIC
managed like any other hardware in the system -- by a
driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of
switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only
one ASIC vendor at this point writing a driver that
works with switchdev.

This talk discusses typical software architectures for
network operating systems and introduces a path for
transitioning SDK based solutions to the switchdev
model.


On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move
> networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it,
> there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those
> ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco
> network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be
> able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years.
>
> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the
> point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors
> mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who
> exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus
> trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you
> that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation
> to take course.
>
> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many
> people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS
> variants, that doesnt mean that every one is....can i operate networks
> without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco,
> I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of
> different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
> engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company
> is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>
> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-
> switches-are-no-bargain
>
> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is
> bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the
> speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>
> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont
> see Cisco's name here but others are.
>
> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ?
> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>
> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
> writing that code ?
>
> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> dont understand.
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
>
> > Hey Tails Pipes,
> >
> > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open
> > source'?
> >
> > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
> >
> > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious
> > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for
> > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their
> > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia
> > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off
> > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and
> > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium
> > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
> >
> > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it
> > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time,
> > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
> >
> > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
> > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
> > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
> > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no
> > way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux,
> > no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
> > forwarding-plane.
> > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in
> > that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted
> > you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case,
> > the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And
> > of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
> >
> > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
> > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
> > the forwarding-plane.
> >
> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are
> definitely
> > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction
> > of
> > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and
> > make
> > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
> > >
> > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised
> > that
> > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
> > >
> > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
> > > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS
> > is
> > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
> > inferring
> > > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
> > > products.
> > >
> > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch
> and
> > > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real
> defining
> > > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
> > > architecture ?
> > >
> > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
> > > difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
> > >
> > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
> > > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> > > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ++ytti
> >
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
_______________________________________________
cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco

[Tails Pipes]

Copied from smart people :


Welcome to the world of coopetition. Microsoft has SQL Server running on
Linux. They also sell Windows Server licenses. Some customers want one or
the other, so they give them what they want. Other customers want a
solution, and they can get it.


I think enough customers (not all of them, but an increasing number) have
said that open is where it's at. Cisco has been preparing but holding to
its proprietary line to capture as much revenue as possible before they are
forced to change. At the same time, they have to turn around the ship and
change their products.


Its not easy changing a big, fat company after 20 years of doing the same
thing over and over while making huge profits for little effort.


Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better,
faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a
cheaper price too. Its taking time for customers to make the switch but its
a slow and steady migration.


Cisco knows this at least. And the moves to subscription licenses are an
attempt to extract more money from fewer customers. I think they have
chosen to move up market, charge more and walk away from the customers who
are willing to go whitebox/disagg/unbundled/open/DIY. They can't win so
they won't compete. Its a obvious strategy.


That means bigger enterprise customers who don't care how much money they
spend will pay extra.

https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/8r0afq/is_
their_any_truth_to_the_trend_of_putting/



On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Sami Joseph <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox
> already did...i guess
>
> https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a-
> better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev
>
> Description
>
> Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking
> are all the rage today. While the choice in white box
> switches and "open" networking operating systems (NOS)
> has proliferated in recent years, switching ASICs are
> still predominantly programmed using SDKs and those SDKs
> are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The
> adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a
> huge impact on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for
> user APIs (how the switch is configured, debugged and
> monitored) and the performance of the control plane.
>
> Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into
> a new approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related
> in-kernel APIs. The result allows for a simpler, cleaner
> NOS that fully leverages the Linux kernel with the ASIC
> managed like any other hardware in the system -- by a
> driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of
> switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only
> one ASIC vendor at this point writing a driver that
> works with switchdev.
>
> This talk discusses typical software architectures for
> network operating systems and introduces a path for
> transitioning SDK based solutions to the switchdev
> model.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move
>> networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it,
>> there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny
>> those
>> ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco
>> network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be
>> able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years.
>>
>> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the
>> point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors
>> mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who
>> exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus
>> trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you
>> that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation
>> to take course.
>>
>> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many
>> people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS
>> variants, that doesnt mean that every one is....can i operate networks
>> without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco,
>> I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of
>> different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
>> engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a
>> company
>> is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
>> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>>
>> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches
>> -are-no-bargain
>>
>> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is
>> bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the
>> speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>>
>> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I
>> dont
>> see Cisco's name here but others are.
>>
>> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux
>> ?
>> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>>
>> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
>> writing that code ?
>>
>> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
>> dont understand.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
>>
>> > Hey Tails Pipes,
>> >
>> > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open
>> > source'?
>> >
>> > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
>> >
>> > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious
>> > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for
>> > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their
>> > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia
>> > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off
>> > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and
>> > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium
>> > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
>> >
>> > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it
>> > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time,
>> > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
>> >
>> > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
>> > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
>> > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
>> > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no
>> > way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux,
>> > no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
>> > forwarding-plane.
>> > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in
>> > that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted
>> > you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case,
>> > the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And
>> > of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
>> >
>> > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
>> > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
>> > the forwarding-plane.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are
>> definitely
>> > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the
>> direction
>> > of
>> > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and
>> > make
>> > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
>> > >
>> > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised
>> > that
>> > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
>> > >
>> > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
>> > > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how
>> IOS
>> > is
>> > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
>> > inferring
>> > > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
>> > > products.
>> > >
>> > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch
>> and
>> > > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real
>> defining
>> > > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
>> > > architecture ?
>> > >
>> > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
>> > > difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
>> > >
>> > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
>> > > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
>> > > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ++ytti
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
>> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/c

[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 07:20:55AM -0700, Tails Pipes wrote:
> Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better,
> faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a
> cheaper price too.

Not exactly sure what you're talking about. Cisco builds many products,
some of them are indeed not very reliable, and others are definitely
more expensive :-) - but to claim "nearly everyone is doing better, faster,
more reliable" is so totally off-base that you really need to do some
solid reading before going on with that rant.

The "networking space" is very vast - from boxes that have a few times
100 Mbit and full software routing to boxes that use broadcom chips
for "fast and cheap" 40x 10Gbit ports but limited feature sets (<- this
is dictated by the hardware, the OS used on top can not change it),
to "flexible, fast, and insanely expensive" boxes with many times 100Gbit/s
support for >2 Million routing table entries, etc.

Depending on your needs, an APU2 with Linux might be the right answer,
or a Cisco ASR9900 or Juniper MX2020, filling a whole rack and costing
multiple million US$... (and no, you won't be able to do that with
Linux or any other generic OS without heavy hardware support)

gert
--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany ***@greenie.muc.de

[Nick Cutting]

I like Cisco - feels good when I type commands into the CLI.

I have faith in my fingers

Having too strong an opinion is bad for your internal chill zone, do not be mean to cisco man, not on this list !


-----Original Message-----
From: cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp-***@puck.nether.net> On Behalf Of Tails Pipes
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Sami Joseph <***@gmail.com>
Cc: cisco-nsp NSP <cisco-***@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)

This message originates from outside of your organisation.

Copied from smart people :


Welcome to the world of coopetition. Microsoft has SQL Server running on Linux. They also sell Windows Server licenses. Some customers want one or the other, so they give them what they want. Other customers want a solution, and they can get it.


I think enough customers (not all of them, but an increasing number) have said that open is where it's at. Cisco has been preparing but holding to its proprietary line to capture as much revenue as possible before they are forced to change. At the same time, they have to turn around the ship and change their products.


Its not easy changing a big, fat company after 20 years of doing the same thing over and over while making huge profits for little effort.


Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better, faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a cheaper price too. Its taking time for customers to make the switch but its a slow and steady migration.


Cisco knows this at least. And the moves to subscription licenses are an attempt to extract more money from fewer customers. I think they have chosen to move up market, charge more and walk away from the customers who are willing to go whitebox/disagg/unbundled/open/DIY. They can't win so they won't compete. Its a obvious strategy.


That means bigger enterprise customers who don't care how much money they spend will pay extra.

https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/8r0afq/is_
their_any_truth_to_the_trend_of_putting/



On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Sami Joseph <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox
> already did...i guess
>
> https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a-
> better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev
>
> Description
>
> Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking are all the
> rage today. While the choice in white box switches and "open"
> networking operating systems (NOS) has proliferated in recent years,
> switching ASICs are still predominantly programmed using SDKs and
> those SDKs are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The
> adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a huge impact
> on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for user APIs (how the
> switch is configured, debugged and
> monitored) and the performance of the control plane.
>
> Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into a new
> approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related in-kernel APIs. The
> result allows for a simpler, cleaner NOS that fully leverages the
> Linux kernel with the ASIC managed like any other hardware in the
> system -- by a driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of
> switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only one ASIC vendor
> at this point writing a driver that works with switchdev.
>
> This talk discusses typical software architectures for network
> operating systems and introduces a path for transitioning SDK based
> solutions to the switchdev model.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to
>> move networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute
>> to it, there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want
>> to deny those ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable
>> being a cisco network guy, well you dont live alone in the world,
>> others also need to be able to run networks without having to work on
>> it for 10 years.
>>
>> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that
>> the point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the
>> vendors mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated
>> opinion who exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ?
>> is it Linus trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of
>> people like you that are so comfortable in their own skin that they
>> dont allow innovation to take course.
>>
>> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and
>> many people can understand and work with but if you are so
>> comfortable with IOS variants, that doesnt mean that every one
>> is....can i operate networks without having years of experience and
>> implicitly forced support by cisco, I am sick of having to learn all
>> the cisco specific terms to all sorts of different boxes and
>> technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS engagements, but
>> thats not what this post is about. its about how a company is making
>> use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
>> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>>
>> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches
>> -are-no-bargain
>>
>> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux
>> is bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that
>> video, the speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>>
>> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I
>> dont see Cisco's name here but others are.
>>
>> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in
>> linux ?
>> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>>
>> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who
>> is writing that code ?
>>
>> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older
>> generations dont understand.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
>>
>> > Hey Tails Pipes,
>> >
>> > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open
>> > source'?
>> >
>> > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
>> >
>> > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the
>> > obvious motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting
>> > OS, for free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer
>> > maintains their own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all
>> > boot Linux. Nokia is one of the few who still write their own
>> > booting OS (forked off vxworks years ago), which also means they
>> > can't bring easily and cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible
>> > reason why they run Cavium control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
>> >
>> > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch
>> > it in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this
>> > time, but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
>> >
>> > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
>> > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
>> > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
>> > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in
>> > no way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in
>> > Linux, no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
>> > forwarding-plane.
>> > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even
>> > in that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets,
>> > granted you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in
>> > that case, the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is
>> > from BRCM. And of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
>> >
>> > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their
>> > ASIC/NPU specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux
>> > kernel to drive the forwarding-plane.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are
>> definitely
>> > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the
>> direction
>> > of
>> > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use
>> > > Linux and
>> > make
>> > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
>> > >
>> > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of
>> > > surprised
>> > that
>> > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
>> > >
>> > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the
>> > > video (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure,
>> > > and how
>> IOS
>> > is
>> > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
>> > inferring
>> > > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all
>> > > their products.
>> > >
>> > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big
>> > > switch
>> and
>> > > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real
>> defining
>> > > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
>> > > architecture ?
>> > >
>> > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it
>> > > that difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
>> > >
>> > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
>> > > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
>> > > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ++ytti
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
>> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>>
>
>
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[James Bensley]

On 22 June 2018 at 15:00, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move
> networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it,
> there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those
> ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco
> network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be
> able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years.
>
> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the
> point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors
> mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who
> exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus
> trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you
> that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation
> to take course.
>
> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many
> people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS
> variants, that doesnt mean that every one is....can i operate networks
> without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco,
> I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of
> different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
> engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company
> is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>
> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches-are-no-bargain
>
> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is
> bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the
> speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>
> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont
> see Cisco's name here but others are.
>
> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ?
> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>
> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
> writing that code ?
>
> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> dont understand.

What did you have for breakfast, troll meat?

James.
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[Kasper Adel]

The NPU/ASIC vendors are not allowing packets to be pushed in Linux,
someone needs to work with them to do that.

What exactly is the problem here ? I guess we can agree that Cisco is a
company that is out there to make money, others are too but they have a
less capitalistic approach to it, more friendly to the community.

You are right about one question, who will pay for packets to flow through
the kernel ?

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move
> networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it,
> there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those
> ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco
> network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be
> able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years.
>
> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the
> point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors
> mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who
> exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus
> trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you
> that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation
> to take course.
>
> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many
> people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS
> variants, that doesnt mean that every one is....can i operate networks
> without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco,
> I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of
> different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
> engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company
> is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the
> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>
> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-
> switches-are-no-bargain
>
> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is
> bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the
> speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>
> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont
> see Cisco's name here but others are.
>
> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ?
> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>
> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
> writing that code ?
>
> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> dont understand.
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <***@ytti.fi> wrote:
>
> > Hey Tails Pipes,
> >
> > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open
> > source'?
> >
> > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
> >
> > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious
> > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for
> > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their
> > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia
> > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off
> > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and
> > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium
> > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
> >
> > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it
> > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time,
> > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
> >
> > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open
> > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just
> > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many
> > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no
> > way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux,
> > no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the
> > forwarding-plane.
> > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in
> > that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted
> > you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case,
> > the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And
> > of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
> >
> > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU
> > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive
> > the forwarding-plane.
> >
> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are
> definitely
> > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction
> > of
> > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and
> > make
> > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
> > >
> > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised
> > that
> > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
> > >
> > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video
> > > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS
> > is
> > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
> > inferring
> > > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their
> > > products.
> > >
> > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch
> and
> > > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real
> defining
> > > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive
> > > architecture ?
> > >
> > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that
> > > difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
> > >
> > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
> > > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> > > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ++ytti
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
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[a***@netconsultings.com]

> Tails Pipes
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:00 PM
>
> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ?
> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>
> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is writing
> that code ?
>
> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> dont understand.
>
If pure linux as NOS has some legs it'll fly regardless of cisco blessing, don't worry no single company owns the whole industry.
Also we can argue that this is only about the OS but in reality it's also the quality of apps running on top and the quality of the underlying HW that plays a major role.
The quality of BGP app for instance, or the ability of the forwarding ASIC to deliver the stated pps rate even if multiple features are enabled or protect high priority traffic even if ASIC is overloaded.


Oh and with regards to:
< I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of different boxes and technologies
I'd recommend you read all the cisco books on networking to get yourself educated on the topic and to get the difference between SW and HW forwarding ( -on why packets are not routed in linux)
And while on that I suggest you read all Stanford university lectures on how routers work too, it'll help you understand why Cisco and Juniper ASICs are so much more expensive than white-box ASICs.

adam

netconsultings.com
::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::


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[Antoine Monnier]

Hi Adam,

Any link regarding those Stanford university lectures you recommend?

Thanks

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 6:41 PM, <***@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> > Tails Pipes
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:00 PM
> >
> > can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in
> linux ?
> > is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
> >
> > can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
> writing
> > that code ?
> >
> > this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> > dont understand.
> >
> If pure linux as NOS has some legs it'll fly regardless of cisco blessing,
> don't worry no single company owns the whole industry.
> Also we can argue that this is only about the OS but in reality it's also
> the quality of apps running on top and the quality of the underlying HW
> that plays a major role.
> The quality of BGP app for instance, or the ability of the forwarding ASIC
> to deliver the stated pps rate even if multiple features are enabled or
> protect high priority traffic even if ASIC is overloaded.
>
>
> Oh and with regards to:
> < I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts
> of different boxes and technologies
> I'd recommend you read all the cisco books on networking to get yourself
> educated on the topic and to get the difference between SW and HW
> forwarding ( -on why packets are not routed in linux)
> And while on that I suggest you read all Stanford university lectures on
> how routers work too, it'll help you understand why Cisco and Juniper ASICs
> are so much more expensive than white-box ASICs.
>
> adam
>
> netconsultings.com
> ::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-***@puck.nether.net
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
> archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>
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[Tails Pipes]

No, things changed there as well. Lookup merchant sillicon, and revise this
post every 6 months. have you heard of Barefoot networks? The days of ASICs
from Cisco are gone and we are glad, we tested the P4 DSL (cisco never got
that right with mantel) on Nexus and its wonderful.

The asics you speak of are no longer important or valuable because people
realized that in many networking planets and galaxies, the asic is reflects
the network design, they are related, and specifically for the data center,
the clos fabric design won, and that does not require fancy asics.
I guess your knowledge is out dated a bit. Cisco itself is using those
merchant sillicon ASICs happily. (lookup Chuck's comments on nexus9000,
best selling cisco switch ever)...guess it is a good switch, because bright
box pushed cisco to do that, and if any one on this list can disagree with
me here, i'm up to that challenge.

What i have discovered recently is that things happen in following way.

Your boss or his boss picks a work culture (no one gets fired for buying
IBM/Cisco), that culture (buying the shiny suits) impacts how you do work,
it makes you select vendors (the ones that sends me to vegas every year)
and not the right network design, you select cisco and you are stuck there
for life, because once they tell you how things should work (aka :
certificates), things are worse, now every time you make a new network
purchase (afraid of new CLI ), you will not be able to look the other way
because you just dont know any thing else (and loosing your certificate
value).

I wish the culture would change to, no one got fired for buying closed but
didnt get promoted either. change requires boldness.

https://toolr.io/2018/06/18/stop-abusing-the-word-open/



On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:41 AM, <***@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> > Tails Pipes
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:00 PM
> >
> > can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in
> linux ?
> > is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
> >
> > can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is
> writing
> > that code ?
> >
> > this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations
> > dont understand.
> >
> If pure linux as NOS has some legs it'll fly regardless of cisco blessing,
> don't worry no single company owns the whole industry.
> Also we can argue that this is only about the OS but in reality it's also
> the quality of apps running on top and the quality of the underlying HW
> that plays a major role.
> The quality of BGP app for instance, or the ability of the forwarding ASIC
> to deliver the stated pps rate even if multiple features are enabled or
> protect high priority traffic even if ASIC is overloaded.
>
>
> Oh and with regards to:
> < I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts
> of different boxes and technologies
> I'd recommend you read all the cisco books on networking to get yourself
> educated on the topic and to get the difference between SW and HW
> forwarding ( -on why packets are not routed in linux)
> And while on that I suggest you read all Stanford university lectures on
> how routers work too, it'll help you understand why Cisco and Juniper ASICs
> are so much more expensive than white-box ASICs.
>
> adam
>
> netconsultings.com
> ::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::
>
>
>
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[James Bensley]

On 28 June 2018 at 17:29, Tails Pipes <***@gmail.com> wrote:
<rant>
....
</rant>

Dude - why have you cross-posted a huge load of fallacies this to
three mailing lists simultaneously?

Please be more respectful of the list members.

Regards,
James.
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[a***@netconsultings.com]

> From: Tails Pipes [mailto:***@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 5:29 PM
>
> No, things changed there as well. Lookup merchant sillicon, and revise this
> post every 6 months.
Nah
> have you heard of Barefoot networks?
Yes I have heard of barefoot, but have you heard of barefoot queuing architecture or pre-classifier granularity and queuing strategy or packet size based pps performance graph, well yeah neither did I.

> The days of
> ASICs from Cisco are gone and we are glad, we tested the P4 DSL (cisco never
> got that right with mantel) on Nexus and its wonderful.
>
> The asics you speak of are no longer important or valuable because people
> realized that in many networking planets and galaxies, the asic is reflects the
> network design, they are related, and specifically for the data center, the clos
> fabric design won, and that does not require fancy asics.
Well there are use cases for fancy asics and use cases for simple asics.


> I guess your knowledge is out dated a bit. Cisco itself is using those merchant
> sillicon ASICs happily.
Yup and those are dirt cheap compared to their home grown asics , this is because for a given pps rate they have lot less smarts.

> (lookup Chuck's comments on nexus9000, best selling
> cisco switch ever)...guess it is a good switch, because bright box pushed cisco
> to do that, and if any one on this list can disagree with me here, i'm up to that
> challenge.
>
> What i have discovered recently is that things happen in following way.
>
> Your boss or his boss picks a work culture (no one gets fired for buying
> IBM/Cisco), that culture (buying the shiny suits) impacts how you do work, it
> makes you select vendors (the ones that sends me to vegas every year) and
> not the right network design, you select cisco and you are stuck there for life,
> because once they tell you how things should work (aka : certificates), things
> are worse, now every time you make a new network purchase (afraid of new
> CLI ), you will not be able to look the other way because you just dont know
> any thing else (and loosing your certificate value).
>
Well I guess that could be a story of some of the smaller shops that can't afford investing in R&D and thus rely on well-trodden paths, but certainly not my problem.


> I wish the culture would change to, no one got fired for buying closed but
> didnt get promoted either. change requires boldness.
>
> https://toolr.io/2018/06/18/stop-abusing-the-word-open/
>
I understand your passion for open sw and open hw architecture, but routing high pps rates on x86 will always be impractical compared to specialized asics.
Yes going x86 certainly makes sense for low pps use cases - a uCPE is a good example of such a use case.
And as far as the high pps rate use cases goes, reading other posts in this thread, it seems that the current state of the art with regards to any linux OS driving any white-box ASICs is not quite ready for primetime yet.
A viable alternative might be the FPGA NICs -but seems still not financially attractive.
Just wondering what's the latest on the GPU for packet forwarding front (or is that deemed legacy now)?


adam

netconsultings.com
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[Gert Doering]

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 01:49:46PM +0100, ***@netconsultings.com wrote:
> Just wondering what's the latest on the GPU for packet forwarding front (or is that deemed legacy now)?

Last I've heard is that pixel shaders do not map really nicely to the
work needed for packet forwarding - so it works, but the performance gain
is not what you'd expect to see.

gert

--
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you
feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted
it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany ***@greenie.muc.de

[James Bensley]

On 29 June 2018 at 13:55, Gert Doering <***@greenie.muc.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 01:49:46PM +0100, ***@netconsultings.com wrote:
>> Just wondering what's the latest on the GPU for packet forwarding front (or is that deemed legacy now)?
>
> Last I've heard is that pixel shaders do not map really nicely to the
> work needed for packet forwarding - so it works, but the performance gain
> is not what you'd expect to see.

Which is to be expected right? Typical GPU instruction sets and ALUs
are great for floating point operations which we don't need for packet
processing. Packets typically need low complexity tasks performed at
high rates. Various high end DC switches like Nexus boxes use GDDR5
RAM just as a graphics card would but the processing is done by an
ASIC, which makes sense to me, that is not the place for general
purpose x86 compute chips. This is a specific task.

Cheers,
James.
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[a***@netconsultings.com]

> From: Marcus Leske [mailto:***@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2018 3:58 PM
>
> open APIs tops that funny abuse list IMHO :
> https://github.com/OAI/OpenAPI-Specification/issues/568
>
> can we change the topic of the thread to an informative one, instead of a
> leaked video or not, to why exactly do network engineers are often
> confused by the abusive marketing all over the place of what is open and
> what is not and other computing terms.
>
> I guess this is happening in networking more often than other domains
> because networking people didnt get a chance in their career to learn about
> the world of computing, their heads were somewhere else, learning about
> complex networking protocols and not the common computing interfaces,
> the open source world, existing frameworks and paradigms, this video helps
> a bit on how did this happen:
> https://vimeo.com/262190505https://vimeo.com/262190505
>
> has anyone here seen list of topics that network engineers usually miss on
> their journey ? i know they never get exposed to software development
> and engineering in general, databases, web technologies, operating system
> fundamentals.
>
Well I guess if you stick around in networking for long time you kind of get exposed to some of these to a certain level on a day job, some of it was covered in school in various levels of detail, and to some of these concepts we (networkers) get a specific very narrow filed exposure I'd say, like in your example of databases -well various protocol tables are good examples of decentralized distributed databases, then some Network OS-es are good examples of distributed operating systems. So I guess it then just boils down to the willingness of and individual to understand these concepts on an ever more fundamental level -with every next interaction with these. Maybe it draws one more towards the software development side or perhaps more towards the somewhat holistic understanding of the networking discipline through graph theory and complex adaptive systems.


adam

netconsultings.com
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[Sami Joseph]

On the topic of marketing hypes vs real requirements, does anyone see real
use cases for telemetry ? Can anyone pls give me examples?

Thanks

On Sunday, July 8, 2018, <***@netconsultings.com> wrote:

> > From: Marcus Leske [mailto:***@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2018 3:58 PM
> >
> > open APIs tops that funny abuse list IMHO :
> > https://github.com/OAI/OpenAPI-Specification/issues/568
> >
> > can we change the topic of the thread to an informative one, instead of a
> > leaked video or not, to why exactly do network engineers are often
> > confused by the abusive marketing all over the place of what is open and
> > what is not and other computing terms.
> >
> > I guess this is happening in networking more often than other domains
> > because networking people didnt get a chance in their career to learn
> about
> > the world of computing, their heads were somewhere else, learning about
> > complex networking protocols and not the common computing interfaces,
> > the open source world, existing frameworks and paradigms, this video
> helps
> > a bit on how did this happen:
> > https://vimeo.com/262190505https://vimeo.com/262190505
> >
> > has anyone here seen list of topics that network engineers usually miss
> on
> > their journey ? i know they never get exposed to software development
> > and engineering in general, databases, web technologies, operating system
> > fundamentals.
> >
> Well I guess if you stick around in networking for long time you kind of
> get exposed to some of these to a certain level on a day job, some of it
> was covered in school in various levels of detail, and to some of these
> concepts we (networkers) get a specific very narrow filed exposure I'd say,
> like in your example of databases -well various protocol tables are good
> examples of decentralized distributed databases, then some Network OS-es
> are good examples of distributed operating systems. So I guess it then just
> boils down to the willingness of and individual to understand these
> concepts on an ever more fundamental level -with every next interaction
> with these. Maybe it draws one more towards the software development side
> or perhaps more towards the somewhat holistic understanding of the
> networking discipline through graph theory and complex adaptive systems.
>
>
> adam
>
> netconsultings.com
> ::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::
>
>
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